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Then there are artists whose catalogs are off-limits. Glee’s best-known rejection: Kings of Leon, who rarely license their music. Murphy’s message to nonbelievers the Followill brothers? “F— you, Kings of Leon,” he says, raising the volume of his monotonal interview voice ever so lightly. “They’re self-centered assholes, and they missed the big picture. They missed that a 7-year-old kid can see someone close to their age singing a Kings of Leon song, which will maybe make them want to join a glee club or pick up a musical instrument. It’s like, OK, hate on arts education. You can make fun of Glee all you want, but at its heart, what we really do is turn kids on to music.”

It does, however, point to an uncertain future. With Murphy’s Glee contract up at the end of Season 5 and the cast due to graduate at some point (“just because they leave this school doesn’t mean they can’t go to another one,” he hints), can the show continue to churn out stars, ratings, quality music and good stories without him? As much as he can, Murphy is working to ensure Glee’s longevity by setting up story lines and the constant introduction of new characters.

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